Beating Burnout | Stories With Traction Podcast

SHOW NOTES:

SUMMARY: In this episode, Matt Zinman and Matt Zaun talk about how to retain top talent by focusing on beating burnout in an organization.

MATT ZINMAN BIO: Matt is the founder and CEO of ZU Publishing, INC., author of Z-isms (Insights to Live By), and a speaker who focuses on beating burnout.

For more info on Matt, check out his website HERE.

MATT ZAUN BIO: Matt is an award-winning speaker and storyteller who empowers organizations to attract more clients through the art of strategic storytelling. Matt’s past engagements have catalyzed radical sales increases for over 300 organizations that range from financial institutions to the health and wellness industry.

Matt shares his expertise in persuasion with executives, sales professionals, and entrepreneurs, who he coaches on the art of influence and how to leverage this for profits and impact.

For more info, check out Matt Zaun HERE. 

 

*Below is an AI-generated transcript, which may contain errors

 

 

Matt Zaun 

Matt, welcome to the stories attraction podcast.

 

Matt Zinman 

Great to be with you, Matt.

 

Matt Zaun 

Thanks for having me. really appreciate it. I appreciate your time. And we've known of each other for quite some time.

 

Matt Zinman 

We connected on LinkedIn. I want to say years ago, I think it was during the pandemic. So it's been quite

time now.

 

Matt Zaun

And I've appreciated your work. I really appreciate a lot of the stories, the messages that you've been posting, especially on LinkedIn.

So I want to have you on. I want to unpack a lot of what you do from a company culture perspective.

So I know you talk a lot about overcoming burnout, and I think that that is on a lot of leaders minds.

Their teams are flustered, they're stressed out, they're feeling that burnout. So I wanted to dive right in and tackle that piece.

So for anyone listening that has the team of people that they are responsible for, they are responsible for leading a group of people, not just based on the skill set, not just based on the different mechanics of what they're doing, but truly being an inspiration to them and developing them as future leaders.

If that's the scenario and they're dealing with a group of people that are feeling flustered and burned out, what's the first thing you recommend people point to?

 

Matt Zinman 

Right. Well, I want to acknowledge a couple of things, man. First off, I'm a big fan of yours, have been for some time.

Matt Z meets Matt Z.

 

Matt Zaun 

That doesn't happen every day. Sure. No, does not.

 

Matt Zinman 

And I just really appreciate you. And the topic here, certainly at the heart of a great passion for me.

I've had two bouts with burnout over the years and have done through that recovery. I'm bringing the experience to the equation.

I'll answer your question in moment, just as a quick backstory. The aspect of burnout that I think, aside from the fact that it's as prevalent, I think people recognize that the stats don't lie, is that the executives are also burned out.

So it's very tangible for leaders to recognize that this is not just something they need to do for their people.

They need to do for themselves. And we're not only speaking to the need for personal development. or even building personal capacity.

This is about personal effectiveness in the office and beyond in that engagement. The first question around burnout in the corporate environment is really one of control.

How much is the tail wagging the dog? Are you having too many meetings? Are you inundated with emails? Are you not giving people breaks?

Are you not mixing it up? So I would definitely to question engage with your people to really see what's possible in terms of improving those sorts of things that are systemic.

 

Matt Zaun 

So I appreciate many things that you said. I appreciate you going right to executives are also feeling burned down.

they might not even know the encouragement to give. team and also the control piece is very interesting. So you had said you have experience with burnout.

Unfortunately, I do as well. So I could speak very personally to this. I remember the exact day with August 20th of 2022.

I had a major nervous breakdown, absolutely severe. I've had a couple of them over the course of my life, but this one was the worst.

From August 20th to the 22nd that year, I was laying on my couch almost unable to move. I remember my wife being very concerned.

know, what in the world is happening? Is it depression? Is it some type of sickness we weren't aware of?

Well, the main story was I was very much overworking my body, my mind and body had given up. That year, 2022, I had the most amount of red eyes I've ever experienced in my life.

I had two red eyes in a week at one point going back and forth from Philadelphia to LAX airport.

It was absolutely. grueling. And the year of 2022, one out of every three nights was a sleepless night. I was just pushing through, I was working my guts out.

 

Matt Zinman 

So my body and mind had given up.

 

Matt Zaun 

So if you would have asked me that same question, how would you help someone with burnout? I have no idea because I couldn't help myself with burnout.

But for me personally, it came to cutting what I viewed. Well, one, I had to do it. I put everything down that I was doing.

And I pointed to this is not a necessity. I cut it out. So cutting those out to focus on what I really needed to do.

So from a control perspective, another C word cut, would you recommend people cut things out of their life to get more of that control?

would you recommend with that?

 

Matt Zinman 

Sure, Matt, people have to recognize their own capacity and their own lack of capacity. Some people are more high functioning actually than others.

Whatever that is, burnout is going to stem from the demands on you exceeding that capacity and you've not. aligning with that and doing the things that you need to and certainly man I can relate to what you're describing and I think most people at one level or another burnout is is so variable But they can relate to it whether that's just stress to a certain degree That's just life or what you're describing is really becoming non functional and I know that as well So I had and you know put the story aside But I had two very different bouts of burnout the first in 2002 was the perfect storm Very similar to you commuting Philadelphia, you know downtown over working new baby You know on and on and on the second one was ten years ago now I've had to contend with depression myself and I'm someone out and about as an advocate around this just the same When you are experiencing depression your synapses are you know Wah wah wah wah wah you know you're you're just slowing down your capacity

reduces and so it's very easy for burnout to take hold because you might have the same capacity that you're used to dealing with in any given day that you can handle but then you encounter depression and your capacity drops below the ability to get those things done and overwhelms you.

So I think it's also really important to look at why that capacity is in that deficit. Again, not just potentially a lack of control within the organizational culture even in teams especially and it's really up to the managers who are on the front line to be well versed and to be able to have that that culture of psychological safety.

think a lot of people you know that term gets thrown around just a bit but it really is just about people feeling comfortable to express where they're at and to be met by the manager and the

company to support those needs.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, that's powerful. I also appreciate you said a little while ago about meetings, meeting after meeting after meeting, right?

just needless work. And I wonder how much a burnout goes back to a subconscious mind of us doing tasks where we really feel like we're working, but we're not really doing anything productive.

So case in point, social media. I think social media often with people scrolling, sometimes thinking they're actually working and their mind is telling them that they're working, but it's not only doing anything productive.

Something like that being at least a lot more effective focus, maybe focus time focused action steps while they're on social media, especially if they're in a marketing, marketing capacity or a sales capacity.

But I do see this thing when it comes to very high dopamine charging activities and we get sucked in because we like that feeling, but we're

And it's sense over working so how much of the conscious mind and subconscious mind play into feeling overwhelmed.

 

Matt Zinman 

That's a really great point Matt you know when we look across the board. Holistically at personal capacity to handle everything in our lives.

It doesn't take a lot to recognize that as human beings we are not as evolved as. Keeping up with the technology and the social media and the AI and the number of messages that are coming across us.

Some you know many of which were really even unaware of and we have to be selective. In being able to manage all of that so that that clutter is a factor and then beyond that is something that.

When we really dive into what's at the heart of all of this it's the inner work. It's people overthinking.

It's. Not only what's going on, but having a tendency to worry, to make assumptions, to act on those assumptions, to run phantom conversations through their heads.

To be honest, Matt, I firmly believe that overthinking is the greatest source of unhappiness. We really do not recognize how much we're all in our own heads.

And there are certain things you need to do to be able to to get out of your head more and be able to be more engaged with all the things that are actual and the demands that are on you.

 

Matt Zaun 

You know, it's interesting you say that because it's amazing how overthinking also takes away from curiosity. I see some people that they're so steeped in research and thinking and thinking and thinking about something that they almost like a checklist.

go down the checklist once they do the research and they're not allowing themselves to be curious. This was many for years when it came to even interviews.

I would do so much intensive research. on the person that I was interviewing, thinking that it was a great thing, right?

one's really down on research, right? They want research, they want people to come to table knowing exactly what they're going to say.

But the problem was, I had no curiosity because it was such a conditioned conversation where I wanted X, Y, Z to come out of it, that it led to overthinking, it led to a tremendous amount of stress.

So it's amazing. Your point about overthinking being the greatest source of unhappiness, it's amazing how happy people can be when they are curious, when they allow themselves to be creative, right?

mean, happiness really breeds creativity, which I think really spurs on more business ideas.

 

Matt Zinman 

So I appreciate you mentioning that. Yeah, for sure. always easier 2020, right? For sure. But you know, the first thing is about taking that total inventory of all the demands on you, what's causing you to feel the way that you are.

And it's a huge step to even just step back from every thing to address that. And that's really where it starts.

 

Matt Zaun 

Sure. Now, what do you recommend leaders go? Do you recommend like a retreat, pulling people outside of their normal state, get out of the office building, bring people if they're working from home, bring them to another location?

 

Matt Zinman 

Like, where's the best place to start processing this information? I'm going to come at that question a different way, Matt, because that really is a to each their own.

Everyone's going to find and knows for themselves what it is it's going to give them relief. And everyone has to work at constantly managing their own stress.

When I think of burnout, getting to the root of it, through all the work I've done these past four or five years in the whole effectiveness, life improvement and enrichment.

There are two aspects, facets that really are at the heart of it and that I speak to. One is resilience and the other is presence, back to our being in our own heads.

Quite simply, life is challenging, as we all know, all the time. Resilience is certainly that skill around making it not as challenging, the challenges.

Everything from the big things to the drive-through window getting it wrong. How do you manage yourself? Being in traffic, it all is a factor.

Presence is huge. If you think back to when we were kids, were three young kids, And hopefully you're, I know, Matt, you at least well enough that you're engaged to take the time to really be present with them.

I know you're a great guy. Easily tell that about you. Everything for them, as it was for us at that age, happens in the present.

There is no pastor or future where everything that curiosity that you're describing, but as life gets more complex through the years we become less and less present that is in fact why things time seems to go by faster.

And and so when you look at some of the. Greatest joys in life making memories and things that make you say wow that's you can only be present in order to experience those things and that's also why it's so important because.

Because that's going to ward off all the stress that you're dealing with so creating a greater balance by doing the the essentials around building your resilience and your presence as skills is is what's really going to get the heart of it all.

 

Matt Zaun

Yeah let's talk about presence piece and you mentioned my children I appreciate that you know as any father listening we can all get better.

or that we can do to be more present for sure. I do do everything I possibly can to do that.

know, just this morning over breakfast, it was an incredible experience for about a half an hour. I had all my kids really look into a certain activity that was happening right now in the world.

We were doing a little bit of research on it. They were coming up with predictions and what they thought might happen.

It was really interesting for them from a research perspective and also collaboration. It was an awesome, awesome moment. had a fantastic breakfast.

But you're right about the presence piece because once this whole experience happened, one of my kids got really, really flustered about something.

And of course, my mind goes to like, did you not just witness our incredible morning that we just had?

Why are you getting so tense? Well, exactly what you said, living in the moment, right? He's not thinking about the past experience that just happened.

And often they don't think to the future either. They really do think in that moment. But it's amazing how many other people take this.

 

Matt Zinman

into their adulthood.

 

Matt Zaun

Sure. I cannot tell you how many people I work with that are high achievers. They've done it all. They've seen it all from a business perspective, but they're not willing to have a little bit of fun, have a little bit of enjoyment with their life.

I was recently talking to a gentleman who owns a large business based in the Portland, Oregon area. And I've been to Oregon numerous times.

And for anyone listening that's been to the Oregon area, you're about 30 minutes away from some of the most beautiful waterfalls in North America.

And I asked him, so he goes back and forth. He travels back and forth. He's business all over the country.

doesn't live in Oregon, but he flies out there quite often. And I said, oh, have you ever been to the waterfalls?

And I listed different locations. And he said, no, he said, I've never done that.

 

Matt Zinman 

He said, I don't have time to do that.

 

Matt Zaun 

And it really got me thinking, here's this guy has has it all tons of financial resources, some incredible businesses.

clearly He's doing well financially. He's doing well when it comes to a business perspective. But he doesn't have the time to block off in his calendar, to sit and see some of the most gorgeous waterfalls in North America.

 

Matt Zinman

That is mind boggling to me. And also too common.

 

Matt Zaun 

Right. Yeah, sure. And later on in our conversation, he was talking about how flustered he was, how frustrated he was with things that were going on in his business.

So I want you to speak to that a little bit from a presence perspective, kind of pulling ourselves out of our normal state, just learning how to enjoy life a little bit more.

I recently heard someone talk about having a lot more firsts than when we see something, go into it like it's the first time we've ever seen it.

that helps us be more present.

 

Matt Zinman 

So what are some strategies you would coach someone through when it comes to being more present? I think you've covered this to some degree on both sides of the equation.

One is knowing what lights you up, being with your kids. What feeds your passion? So the things that balance out, the challenges that you're contending with day in and day out.

The other to your point back to how many meetings we're having. Are we being effective? Are we making a difference?

It's, it's that progress that is that fulfillment at work that also lights people up. And when you can focus more on being more productive along those lines, for matters and being more engaged in the present with your kids, for example, or visiting the waterfalls, that's one of the best anecdotes to burn out and stress.

And we know that inherently, but the challenge is being intentional. And, and very few of us really are. I'm going to reference very briefly, Matt, with respect to our time, a few things for people to recognize.

One is that there are. few filters that shape our reality. One perception and the difference between things going wrong and finding the brighter side, mood health, which is out of my book.

not a clinical term. It's more from lived experience, but we all have to manage our moods. is really about normalizing the conversation you described earlier.

We all get depressed until one degree or another. How much we bounce back is really what distinguishes one person from another.

But on any given day, bright sunny day versus a rainy day, we feel differently. And that's another lens that we're seeing the world through.

the other is the super ego, the inner critic. What are we saying with our inner monologue, negativity bias, all these, all these filters that we have to fight through.

We're dealing, know, a mood health. We have this biochemical reality, know, you mentioned like endorphins and serotonin and yeah, we're, you know, we brain chemistry that affects that.

The other is that we have these forces of distraction. Quite simply our past baggage, our future uncertainties around worry, making assumptions, and then we have really how we're hardwired these, these automatic negative thoughts that is a scientific term and whole thing around that.

So it really is that those are the challenges and the problems that you have to recognize intentionally in order to work through them to be present.

And then there are certain techniques that I speak to about brain present. we have a few minutes, I'm happy to get into those.

 

Matt Zaun 

Sure. So what were some things regarding brain presence that you would recommend people focus on?

 

Matt Zinman 

Well, for one, when we look at past baggage, the question is, well, for those of us who are dealing with that, who have that as a drain or

on our well-being. The anecdote is really looking at self-kindness as a skill, literally drawing the line. And what makes self-kindness different from anything, let's say in the world of personal development, like you feel a certain way about yourself, you want to work on yourself, you want to get from here to there, but it's very vague, very nebulous.

don't really know what it takes. Well, self-kindness is very definitive. You're either being kind to yourself or not being kind to yourself.

And that is really about addressing the inner critic. That's about letting go of baggage, your resentments and regrets. I think a lot of us have a tendency to have those.

The other is really an anchor for my book, which is my chapter one called Earned Confidence. Quite simply, it's recognizing that, look, we've all been through everything we have in our lives, we've overcome so much.

We're still standing. We always get up one more time than we're knocked down. And so at this point, we've proven to ourselves that we're entirely capable of overcoming whatever happens to us.

So why would we worry about something that's uncertain? Why would we make an assumption and act on that assumption based on any uncertainty?

So you have to fact check yourself and run it through this, again, a filter, like a fiction filter to recognize whatever it is that you're dealing with, you're dealing with the real.

You're capable of only dealing with the real. So that's the foundational concept around earned confidence. And when it comes to everything else, it's really being intentional and having an amplified awareness and really building into your day checkpoints to check in with yourself or stand up for five minutes.

And it starts the way I've done it and continue to do it when I kind of fall off the wagon with it is I just simply set alerts on my phone and I'll

I parent myself, I don't get myself a choice. Three o'clock, I mean, middle of something, well, my phone went off, I gotta get up and move around for five minutes.

So, those are the cliff notes.

 

Matt Zaun

I love that. You know, one of the things that I always recommend people do is deep story work. And what I mean by that is really unpacking experiences in their past that led to trauma.

I know a lot of people listen this, they might get a little bit flustered with that T word trauma.

And sometimes it's not a capital T, it could be a lowercase T. It could be maybe that person was in high school and someone tore into them and said something horrible about them and that had a profound impact on them.

It could be something that's minor, but a lot, it's a lot more minor, so to speak, than some other horrific traumas, but it's still trauma.

And I always recommend people do deep story work, really impact their past, what makes them tick, why did they develop fears as a child that they now have carried into their adult work.

years. It's a powerful, powerful exercise. know, there is something to be said about speaking to our inner child. Some people think that that is kind of woo-woo, so to speak, but there's a lot to say about really speaking to your inner child that that individual, that boy or girl was scared as a child because of something.

But now that you're an adult, that situation, you don't need to be scared of that anymore. But we're still carrying that into our subconscious mind.

So it's a really powerful exercise to try to understand why we tick the way we do. So Matt, I appreciate everything today.

I really appreciate this conversation. I appreciate a lot of the insights you give me a lot to think about.

 

Matt Zinman

Three in particular that I'm going to take away from this conversation.

 

Matt Zaun 

I appreciate the first thing you said was our executives are burned out as well. I think it's so important to recognize if a leader is burned out, it's very difficult for them to encourage or help their team when they're feeling burned out.

And it goes back to this whole control piece. And then you mentioned creating an environment of empowering managers on the front lines to tackle this.

think that that is great. The second point is overthinking is the greatest source of unhappiness. It's amazing how many people overthink very simplistic topics and it leads to tremendous amount of frustration, unnecessary frustrations.

I appreciate that second point. And the third and final point was about the filter shaping reality. you said two things that I thought were really powerful.

You mentioned perception. And then you also mentioned self kindness as a skill. And my immediate thought went to often we take things for granted versus having gratitude.

And I think that ties back to the perception and also the kindness piece, kindness to ourselves. we take everything in life for granted?

Or do we have that mindset of gratitude? It's so incredibly powerful. So those are my three takeaways. know a lot of people listening might have gotten others.

But Matt, if people want to get more information on what you do, your trainings, your coaching, where's the best place they can go to get that information?

 

Matt Zinman 

Thank you, Matt. Easy enough, MattZinman.com.

 

Matt Zaun 

Perfect. That is very simple.

 

Matt Zinman 

I appreciate that.

 

Matt Zaun 

I will include that in the show notes, people who just click and check out your information from there. But Matt, thank you for your time today.

 

Matt Zinman 

very much appreciate it. Likewise, man. We really packed it in.

 

Matt Zaun 

was wonderful.

 

Matt Zinman 

sure. Thank you for having me.

 

Matt Zaun 

Absolutely. Thank you.