The Lion Within Us | Stories With Traction Podcast

SHOW NOTES:

PODCAST EPISODE SUMMARY: In this episode, Chris Grainger and Matt Zaun talk about how someone can launch and build a podcast to connect with their target audience.

CHRIS GRAINGER BIO: Chris is the Founder and Podcast Host of The Lion Within Us.

For more info, check out Chris here:
https://thelionwithin.us/

MATT ZAUN BIO: Matt is an award-winning speaker and storyteller who empowers organizations to attract more clients through the art of strategic storytelling. Matt’s past engagements have catalyzed radical sales increases for over 300 organizations that range from financial institutions to the health and wellness industry.

Matt shares his expertise in persuasion with executives, sales professionals, and entrepreneurs, who he coaches on the art of influence and how to leverage this for profits and impact.

For more info, check out Matt Zaun HERE. 

*Below is an AI-generated transcript, which may contain errors.

 

Matt Zaun 

In April, I had the opportunity to speak in Raleigh, North Carolina. a few workshops down there.

And I was connected to a gentleman by the name of Chris. And Chris mentioned to me that he ran

A podcast. Now, there's so many people that run podcasts and there's so many people that have told me, hey, I run a podcast.

should check it out. So when he said this, my initial thought was, that's, that's awesome. I'll give it a look.

Very nonchalant. And then I look into this gentleman's podcast. And I was literally blown away with the amount of engagement, the listenership he had.

I was stunned that as of this recording. has 200 in fact. 50 episodes, which is mind boggling because most podcasts don't even get past the eighth episode.

So now 250 is absolutely astounding. So I'm very excited for today's conversation because I want to unpack elements of this gentleman's show.

I'm excited and it's an honor and privilege to have Chris Grainger, the founder and podcast host of the line within us.

 

Chris Grainger 

Welcome to the show, Chris. I'm Matt is honored to be here. You're sure?

 

Matt Zaun 

And I very much appreciate your time. I, you know, just kind of looking at the numbers that you have.

And then I want to unpack some of the stories behind those numbers is, you know, you have 250 episodes, you launched two years ago.

So you're well over 100 episodes a year, which is absolutely astounding. How in the world, like, have you, have you, have you really thought about the magnitude of that as far as what you've done when it comes to pocket?

Has it said in yet? Or is it something you just, you just keep going, you built the habits.

 

Chris Grainger

You don't think about the numbers as much. Well, any of my process got to us. have an engineering background.

So for me, once you build the machine, right, and you get the processes and the things in place and you start just putting the work together.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's been, it's been amazing. It's been a year and eight months. were coming up on two years that were.

So it's when we look at what was going on in that short period of time from a podcast standpoint.

That's a relatively short I give first of all, give God all the glory on the success that we've had, but it's been just being obedient and consistent and prolific just to make sure that we are being out there for our listeners each and every week showing up and giving them what they need and what they're hoping for and delivering a good message that is resonating well.

 

Matt Zaun 

Sure, no, it's a really good point. Let's talk about that process. You mentioned building the machine. I can't tell you how many people have told me.

had loved to start a podcast. I just, I don't know how to do that. then some people, they do start a podcast and then like I had mentioned, most podcast episodes or most podcast shows don't get a great episode.

And I think a big part of that is because there's no process that's been built. So can you speak to that?

would be if someone is interested in launching their own show to get their messages into the world, what would be a simple process that they should establish right out of the gate?

 

Chris Grainger 

Yeah, I mean, I think you have to first start off with what do you want Don't you want your to be?

Because I think too many people think, well, I just want to podcast for whatever the reason is, you know, you need to be super clear on what your message is and who you're trying to serve.

I think that is the, that's going to drive everything about everything, you know, helping make better decisions from a business standpoint.

And then from there, once you get clear on that, I'm really big on laying out schedules and having a defined consistency.

Now for our show, we drop three times a week. That is aggressive. I would not recommend that. If you were just starting with a podcast, maybe you want to do once a month, maybe you want to be a little more aggressive once a week or every two weeks, whatever that cadence is, you set that.

But then you make that something that you're not going to negotiate. That is a non-negotiable right there. going to, we're going to drop because podcast listeners, they want to know when can they expect that next episode coming out.

So once you set that and then the last piece I would highly recommend is you got to get something, some, some podcast.

You can add, you can schedule and things like that. for us, we set out right now, we'll record it through November and we're recording this in August.

we typically keep a three to four month buffer of recordings done because life happens and you don't want to let your listeners down, but you need to have that process in place to make sure you're delivering good content on that consistent basis.

 

Matt Zaun 

Sure. That's a really good point. I could speak to that from this perspective as I launched this podcast, but

A little over two years ago, and when I initially launched, it was two episodes a month, and I was randomly launching them on just random days.

And then I was like, you know what? I got to go from two a month to once a week, but again, it was very random.

And then once I picked a day where my audience could expect at this time, this week it's going to launch, my listenership skyrocketed.

really built that routine in the house. I appreciate you mentioning that. So that's really good point. So you have the foundation on the different times you're going to launch.

really appreciate you mentioning having recordings in the bank because life does get in the way. It's amazing that having just even a couple month buffer, what can happen with travel, with family engagements, and if that could really eat into that bank and then you have to keep building it.

So what are some other things that you would recommend? You know, they have a clear message. They have a little bit of a process.

 

Chris Grainger

would you go from there? I think you need to make sure you do have one, the equipment to. To put out a good clear episode, there's lots of ways to do that.

There's lots of recommendations, but just have a good audio. That's ultimately what people are about. You know, sometimes if you're trying to grow YouTube presence like we are to lion, you know, you want the background to look good, but ultimately at the end of the day, podcast listeners, they care about the audio.

So just, you know, amp up a little bit on your mic, have a little sound board, have a way to clean it up.

And then from there, you just need to tell line to a good platform that you can syndicate on. That's going to get it in front of all the audiences out there.

So you pick one that there's, there's so many of them out there. I'm not affiliated with any of them.

So there's just your research. You can talk to other podcasts or you can obviously email me if you want to talk specifically about what we use.

But then from there, you know, once you get that machine built, what we did, we actually put together a release schedule, Matt, and that has been the biggest thing that's helped us.

And on that release schedule, we just lay out when the when the episodes are going to drop, who the guests are, are they solo episodes, are they with a guest.

And then we Actually lay out, all right, on the show notes done. Are the transcripts done? Do we have a blog ready for this episode?

Do we have social media ready? Do we have our images ready? Do we have the headshots? So we have all these different checkboxes within that one sheet.

So we know, hey, is this in production? Is this done? Is this in stage? So there's never a question on where it's going.

So I think whatever that process looks like for you as you develop it out, the more you can put in writing and actually make it just that a process, the less stress you're going to take off of yourself.

And then it's just going to be checking the boxes, right? You'll know what's coming. So there are a couple of additional tips that for me and for our game has really shifted.

it's constantly evolving. We actually added the social media column to our tracker two weeks ago because it became such a big part of what we're doing.

We didn't want to forget it.

 

Matt Zaun 

So it's always evolving and just be willing to be flexible there. So I don't You can't see my notes, but I wrote episode schedule, and I have three arrows now, and I underlined it.

So I'm going to commit, Chris, you're doing it now. going to commit to rolling out an episode schedule. need to get that together, Chris.

I appreciate you mentioning that. So you mentioned not only having the clear message, but who you want to serve.

So I want unpack elements of that. So I've discussed on this show numerous times, ICP slash C, ideal client persona slash community.

You know, who are you connecting with? And this can go pretty deep as far as generation. Who, you know, where are the individuals in life?

are their pain points? What do they do as profession? What books do they read? What podcasts do they listen to?

What shows do they watch? You know, what sports are they into? Like it can go pretty deep into a certain niche.

So once you discover that, how does that change who you're having on your show? What are the different stories that you're sharing on your show?

 

Chris Grainger

I think that changes everything about everything, right? mean, for us, so we serve Christian men that want to be leaders.

That's it. Our whole message is to be the leader God intends you to be. So for us, right now, our show, we don't have women on our show because we're trying to put the emphasis on the need for Christian men to step up and lead.

I've had to turn down some incredible guest opportunities, but I'm being consistent with who we're trying to serve and what that looks like.

So we're not chasing the things out there to just come across your place because once you're a podcaster, you don't have all sorts of people coming to you.

Want to come on your show and want to get in and get their opportunities to share their stories. This is not bad.

You just need to make sure you have the right filter up. When you're first starting, though, you may have to reach out and get that lower to the a little bit because you're trying to get an audience and you're looking for stories.

But I think if you're just real So clear on who you're trying to serve and what their message is and just be clear with them up front.

know, you know, instance, when you were, you were clear with me, Hey, here's my audience and who here's how I want to try to help them.

And we're talking about those things specifically. a lot of times when I go on shows, I'm talking about the line with Dennis and how we serve Christian men.

And I'm cool with that, right? It's, you need to make sure that you know your audience and that you're speaking to them because there's nothing more confusing to an audience that's listening to a show.

And then all of a sudden you're talking about some random topic that doesn't align to why they're there in the first place.

So let's just make sure that you're staying consistent there. And I think if you have a good, well defined business plan with that avatar, I'm really big on avatars.

I mean, we have a whole monologue on an avatar on who we're trying to serve. That's just going to help you dial an end.

And so I always think, and I get a lot of pitches that come to me when I look at the pitches from the people that want to come on the show.

All right, is this going to serve my avatar's name is Bradley. All right, is this going to serve Bradley?

this message going to help Bradley, who is at this stage of life, who I'm trying to help, girl is a leader?

And if it doesn't, you just have to move forward. And if it does, hey, at that point, yeah, we check the right boxes, but I always put it through that filter.

You know, not, it's not a me filter. It's the business filter of the line within us of who we're trying to serve.

I think you stay, if you stay really committed to that, you'll see success in your show.

 

Matt Zaun

All right, so I don't want people to miss us because this is such an unbelievably important point. So in order to kind of unpack this, I want you to describe Bradley for us a little bit more or kind of paint the scene for us because I think it's really good when we're talking story strategies.

So walk us through. So who, who is Bradley? what are some of Bradley's pain points? How old is Bradley?

 

Chris Grainger 

Take us through like his family life. Give us a little bit of insights into Bradley's world. Absolutely. just going to read it to you.

So I mean, I had it right here. Bradley is 35. He's married with a couple kids. He is financially secure, but not where he wants to be.

He has consumer debt and is working towards retirement, but isn't sure if he'll ever get there. His wife is working, but she would love to be to come home at some point.

Life changes. Life changes happen. He isn't sure how to navigate it. For as long as he remembers he's been lukewarm in his local church.

Each week, he feels like he's just checking the boxes and wonders if there's more to be in a believer in this.

He's having trouble connecting with others there and is searching for more. He has a weak connection with God and has won something deeper.

There's a desire to be a leader, but he isn't sure how. So that's Bradley.

 

Matt Zaun 

That is very clear and that is so insightful. So for everyone listening, you know how much we dive in a storage strategy, really utilizing stories to connect with your audience.

See how clear Chris is and how this empowers him. To do that. Because there are so many potential stories that might be incredible that would not connect to Bradley.

So I think it's a really good point that as you get for everyone that wants to launch a show and they end up launching a show, one, you will be amazed that as your show grows, you're going to get request after request.

I mean, I get bombarded with messages with potential guests. You actually have to say no more than you say yes to try to figure out does it line up.

With the audience you're serving and I'll tell you Chris, sometimes it's been tough because I've had some pretty incredible pitches where the stories are amazing and I know it would be really good.

I don't want to say clickbait, but I know that it would bring in some listeners, but does it really does it really job with what I'm trying to do is really connect to the audience and if at the end of the day, if it's if it's no, I need to be able to say no.

And this might be a good opportunity to recommend other shows for them to go on. So it's not just a hard no like you do.

I to serve as many people that come within our orbit, so to speak, but it's not something I'm going to be able to do.

So I really appreciate you mentioning that. So talk to us about different stories that you would want to be shared with Bradley.

 

Chris Grainger

We want to share stories of hope and encouragement and share where guys have they've hit those trials of life because I think so many times from a leadership standpoint, you know, we think the trials are when we're being punished or, you know, we just trying to get through it and we missed the opportunity to learn so much.

And when we're in that trial, we're in the suck in the middle of the terrible times. That's when the true character comes out.

And that's what we try to talk about from a leadership standpoint. like to talk with our guys because we talk a lot of B2B, right?

There's a lot of business to business talk out there. People always, you hear that analogy. replaced that first be with Bible for our listeners.

So that's my okay. How do we bring our faith into our careers and stop living them separately? So we talk a lot about that.

You know, how do we start walking this thing out if we want to be serious about our faith and not just be some weird dude that's in the break room that nobody wants to sit next to you, right?

Let's not make it weird. Let's just be just be real and have connections and I think ultimately, all this business decisions.

There are moral decisions anyway. So let's take the greatest book that was ever been given to us and let's start applying some of those principles from a leadership standpoint.

So if the message lines up that way, Matt, we go all in. that's we've been blessed with too. I'm with you.

It's hard when you get those guests where you feel like it could be really good, particularly when it's like for us, we've been able to connect with some really like B level celebrities and some that you just know would be awesome.

But the message doesn't align. you have to be consistent and just make sure that you're doing what's right for the listener, not what you're trying to just try to get more follows or things like that.

 

Matt Zaun 

Sure, sure. So I want to, I appreciate you mentioned that. I want to talk about before I encourage people to honest

Well, I want to break down just the level of grit that it takes to pull this off. And then we'll talk about what can happen based on this.

So from a grit perspective, here's what I'll mention to people. And maybe you can, maybe you can empathize with this, Chris.

So at the time of this recording, so my episode 84 launched this morning, so 84 episodes. And here's what's amazing about this to me, okay?

Whenever I'm talking to a business leader, I would ask them, would you listen to an intern that there are two weeks on the job?

And the answer probably would be no, right? Like, they're that person still learning. They're still trying to figure different things out.

And here's what's amazing. So 84 episodes, I'm excited about it. I've seen substantial growth when it comes to my audience.

But when you break down the numbers for someone to be on a job for two weeks, generally speaking, that's what 80 hours.

So when you look at all the time and you're Break it down. I felt like I was just getting into more of the routine, more of what I was doing, probably around the 55th episode.

I saw a change. And that might be scary to people, because I mentioned most most shows don't last past eight episodes.

So that could be scary. But I want people to conceptualize the analogy of if you're two weeks on the job, you don't really know that much.

That's really only about 80 hours. So if you pump in 80 hours of work in a podcast, you're going to see substantial amount of episodes.

You're just going to start to be getting into it. And then I look at what you've done with 250, which is absolutely astounding.

And one of the things I was actually having a conversation with a good friend of mine recently. we were talking about just some incredible businesses that are just crushing it when it came to the podcast that was really elevating those businesses.

And I said, you know what's interesting? What all the of these. Podcasts have in common. They all have over 500 episodes, every single one of them.

And we were doing a breakdown that for whatever reason, once that number is hit, it's amazing the tribe of people that they've created around them, the audience, what it's done for their business, which can be very, very difficult for people to hear.

But anyone could really launch a podcast that doesn't take much money. just takes relentless consistency and grit. So can you speak to the grit of a more of the staying power?

Because I see a lot of people they launch and then it fizzles out. So take this through your first like 50.

I mentioned about 55 is when I was starting to get into my end. So take us through your first 50.

Were there a lot of mistakes that were learned?

 

Chris Grainger 

Was it was frustrating? Were you were you're still excited at that point? How did that feel? Yeah, for sure.

mean, and for the listeners too, that's how I've had two shows in that first show, we actually got to 250.

The episodes as well on that one.

 

Matt Zaun 

So, all in all, 500 plus under my belt.

 

Chris Grainger 

So, lots of lessons learned on our first one. forgot to hit record. I mean, you have all those stories, where things happen.

Dogs barking, cats showing up in the, in this video screen, know, all that fun stuff. think, again, it, for me, I think the preparation time going into it, if you prepare for, for you, you're going to, you're going to have so much more stuff.

Success versus if you just sit down and hit record and start just trying to just shoot from the hip.

I mean, I've heard those podcasts that they could be like, I, yeah, yeah. So, I have some notes. I always have a little bit of a structure and figure out your structure, which you want for your show to be.

But then also don't expect for you to start just because you've launched a podcast and you put a few social media posts out there that you're going to get thousands of downloads the first week or the first month.

It takes time. Again, that podcasting is a long, is a long, So, you know, Joe Rogan, it didn't happen overnight.

It took him time to get there, but he's actually put in some serious work to get to that level.

So, you know, I have friends that have a friend who has a show and they get 700,000 downloads a month.

It's crazy. when I compare my show to his, I'm always like, man, I'm super jealous. But then we have engagement through the roof with our listeners in our community and things that we're doing that he's jealous of.

So, make sure you're chasing the right metrics. Because podcasting is kind of like a one to many message. Okay, that's really cool.

You can get a message out there to a lot of people and that's awesome. But how you going to engage them, you need to make sure you're building the right traps and machines and things like that to make to serve those those people that you really want to help from the podcast because the podcast is in itself, you know, it's a great marketing tool, but you need to make sure you build the things around it with league magnets and things like that, that you can actually serve the people.

That you did. That you're connecting with them, that your message is resonating with because if your message is resonating with them, but they have no way to engage me directly, you're just kind of like a guy standing out there on the street with the bullhorn.

I mean, what point, what are you doing this for? So I think having that clear vision of K, I got to put in this effort, and it's going to take me a year.

And maybe you're going to do one a week. So I'm going to give myself 52 episodes before I even look at the stats.

You know, or before I even worry about. How many followers we have, but just put that a little bit of a longer benchmark out there and just work towards that to start with.

And then from there, start building the other pieces of the machine that you need to start being able to nurture the audience that you're gathering and that you're growing because it's going to be awesome.

You're going to get a lot of people who want to learn more and want to have some your one on one time or your coaching or your products or whatever you're quote unquote selling.

Just make sure you're not putting this. Well, if I'm not seeing results in six. Matt Zaun will not stop because you might as well not even start.

There's no needing to get started there because it's such a long game sales tool.

 

Matt Zaun 

Yeah, I appreciate you mentioned the long game. And one of the things that I have mentioned to people because I've seen this time and time again and maybe you could speak to this Chris is the first few episodes are going to be awesome because especially now maybe like you're figuring out how to interview.

 

Chris Grainger 

That's not what I mean by awesome, but you're going to see, you're going to see some numbers.

 

Matt Zaun

So I see this all the time. What happens is a someone will start a show. They'll post on social media regarding their show and all their friends and family are like, you have an episode.

You have a show that sounds great. Let me go check it out. And they see a spike in listenership.

the for the first few episodes, they're like, Oh my gosh, people are listening to my podcast. This is awesome.

And then they're crushed after the first few because it plummets listenership falls off a cliff. And then that's When it sets in where it goes back to what you just mentioned, Chris, that it is a long game.

And if you're not willing to play that long game, you're not going to get over that crush. And I wonder if that's why a lot of these shows don't last past eight episodes because the first five friends and family they're listening, you might be seeing hundreds of downloads your first view, and then come the six to eight episodes.

 

Chris Grainger 

It's almost nothing.

 

Matt Zaun 

you're like, right? Whoa. What am I doing this for? What am I doing this for? So let's talk about that.

Let's talk about that. Once you make the challenge in yourself, you say, hey, I'm going to challenge myself to not even look at numbers for, you know, you mentioned 52.

That is really good advice. You build the process. That's what you mentioned in the beginning, building that process. Once you're willing to do that, talk about the reward for us now.

What have you seen when it comes to building engagement community? know, you mentioned marketing. Obviously, you're amazing.

 

Chris Grainger 

He is looking at the numbers and telling us where things are going. I'm like, that sounds great. Don't give me too many details.

don't want to get sidetracked. But the big thing that helped us is, okay, known as the one that made a message, got to find a way to connect with them.

And I think if you do that, we did it through a series of lady magnets that really were not just trying to get our name out there.

We were generally trying to help people solve couple of problems that we feel like we do a good job at solving it, to line with them.

was amazing. We started putting those out there in the right places. And then they started coming to us. And the email started coming in.

they started joining our email list. they were opting in. then once they're opted in, you can start actually communicating with them.

We built a community. There's lots of different ways you can do it. But that's just what we did. We built a community so we can engage with them.

And then we said, okay, this is going great. So we needed to figure out a monetization model. So we figured that out.

Turn that on so it was always a series of steps, but always the foundation has been the show. The show has been the foundation because each week we're showing up for these guys.

And they're in there wise. We found out we have a lot of lady listeners now too because they like to be able to talk to their husbands about leadership and understand that the stresses that their spouse is under.

So it's been really neat just to hear how it's helped men in particular grow as leaders. But just that process of being consistent with making sure we're putting that a good message out each and every week and having a way to actually connect those individuals.

I think if you missed that as a podcaster, you're really just missing the overall point in general. You got to have some way that you can get in and help these people and serve them.

once you've caught their attention and you're actually bringing a message that's bringing them value.

 

Matt Zaun 

That is such a great point. Chris, I wish that I could have heard a podcast episode like this two years ago when I was starting.

You would have saved me. A lot of headaches. So thank you for sharing that with listeners today. Thank you so much.

I appreciate everything you mentioned. I appreciate your time. And I'm going to take away a lot of different elements from this episode.

So I appreciate that.

 

Chris Grainger 

are three in particular that are my big takeaways. Okay.

 

Matt Zaun 

I really appreciate you mentioning having a super clear message that a super clear message and you need to know who you want to serve.

But it's really important. So you need to know the audience. And you need to really have clarity with what you're saying.

The second big takeaway is that episode schedule. I appreciate that. Like I mentioned, I underlined it. I circled this.

have arrows pointing to it. There's something that I will be doing. I don't know when, but I'm going to, I'm going to figure out when I'm going to figure out how to do that.

So I appreciate that. then the third and final piece is you have to learn to say no if it doesn't match your audience.

I think it can be painful. That times to say no. But I think it's necessary in order to really serve the audience well.

So I appreciate those three points. If anyone wants to get more information on you and what you or what you do, where's the best place they can go to get that information, Chris?

 

Chris Grainger

Yeah, they can just go straight to our website is the line with in dot us. So that's our website.

The line with this is anywhere that you get podcasts and then you can email me at Chris at the line with in dot us as well.

So we try to be really accessible to people and help me the way they can.

 

Matt Zaun 

Perfect. Thank you so much. I won't clue that in the show notes. People just click and go right to you.

Highly recommend checking out Chris's podcast.

 

Chris Grainger 

It has been a great part. I've listened to a bunch of episodes. I really appreciate what he does. And I appreciate you, Chris.

Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you, man. An honor, sir.